How Bad is the rust? How much $$$$?

[Dougieb]

Hi all,

I have the interior out of my 1972 Spider to put in heat/sound insulation and new carpets. Everything was going well until I took out the map pockets and found the rust. I noted some body flex and wrote about it before (http://fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=15874). In short, when the car is on jack stands at the appropriate points, the doors rub very bad. But on the wheels, it is fine.

Here are some pics.

Driver's side. Note the rust in the corner.


Driver's side close up


Passenger side. Not as bad but rust higher up.


Passenger side close up.


So the questions are.......,

1) How bad is this? Is there a pre-fab patch that I can have welded in? Am I going to need to find a donor car to cut from? Can this be fixed from the inside? Or will the fenders need to come off?

2) How common is this? Should everyone look out for this area? How can I prevent this from happening again?

3) How expensive is this? (ballpark)

4) Any recommendations in the Atlanta, GA area to take it to? I would like someone that has been through Fiats before.

I am good at fixing mechanical problems but do not have much experience with welding/body repair. I went ahead and painted these areas with some rust preventative paint. It made me feel a little better. I was hoping to get this car on the road very soon but I know this must be fixed before I go any further with my interior.
Any ideas, suggestions (and comfort. ha ha) would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Dougieb

[mPedro08]

Start with this thread and the OP photobucket pics.

http://fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php ... nt#p154683

You are going to need to remove (unscrew) the outer sill under the door and poke around a bit more before you can determine if all the parts are available. Some are, some are not and the sill/front footwell/inner fender is surprisingly complex on these cars. From experiance, normally for this to have gone all the way through the inside it has done the same on the outside of the sill.

This is a very common issue with these cars and the reason the later ones had plastic splash shields in the front fender well's. It is also a common PO dodgy repair site and yes, something you need to examine closely on these cars along with the cross member and shock towers. I have pics of one that looked like yours until I started digging but I'd rather not share till you open yours up....don't want to scare you!

mP.

[Dougieb]

Thanks, mP, for the reply.

Was it too terribly hard to get your car fixed properly?
By the "the outer sill under the door", are you talking about the rocker panels? I am not sure if that term is universal or not.
I am a bit afraid to take them off, but know I must now.
I appreciate that you don't want to scare me but it isn't working too well.
ha ha

Do you know if the plastic splash shield will fit on the older cars?

Anyways.
I guess I have to do what I have to do.

[mPedro08]

Thanks, mP, for the reply.

Was it too terribly hard to get your car fixed properly?
By the "the outer sill under the door", are you talking about the rocker panels? I am not sure if that term is universal or not.
I am a bit afraid to take them off, but know I must now.
I appreciate that you don't want to scare me but it isn't working too well.
ha ha

Do you know if the plastic splash shield will fit on the older cars?

Anyways.
I guess I have to do what I have to do.

Our car is parting out, it is not cost effective to fix it. Yours may not be as bad...only removing the rocker panel/sill (same thing) under the door, which with patience, WD40, patience, WD40...and sometimes a drill should come off just fine. Under there, and after some wire brushing to see what is rust and what is dust, lies the answer.

Plastic shields can be adapted I understand...never tried. I do know new ones are pricey.

[azruss]

be afraid....be very afraid these are not primary rust spots. if you have rust here, then you probably have extensive rust damage throughout the entire car. before you decide to try to repair these, you need to check the primary spots. floorboard perimeter, fender flairs..especially the rears. front fenders at the bottom seam, rear fenders at the bottom seam. exterior horizontal body tubes below the door inside and out. spring housing, rear rocker below the bumper..inside and outside. bottom of doors, door exterior at bottom seam. antisway bar support, crossmember support.

[Dougieb]

Don't worry.
I am afraid.

But this surprised me a lot. I bought this car because it really looked and felt so "solid".
I spent two years looking around for one before I found this one.
It sucks that this happened. (sorry, venting)
Everything else on this car was very well taken care of.
You can generally tell when a car has been stored or left out.
(Maybe I am not as good as I thought. ha ha)
All the other points that were mentioned above are good.
Spring/shock towers, floor boards, wheel arches, suspension points, bottom of doors, etc.
I am just surprised and dejected.

Anyways....., I need to pop off some rocker panels and take a look.
Maybe it won't be so bad.

I will do that this week and post some pics.
Either it will be a celebration or ............

Thanks again.

[Dougieb]

Well, I could not sleep last night.
Go figure.
So I took 5 minutes and popped off the Driver's rocker panel to take a look.
And I was happy at what I saw.


Solid as a rock underneath. I could not find anywhere soft, crunchy, etc.


The pan was good also.


The wheel arch had no problems at all.

I know that I still have to fix this before I can go forward with the restoration. But at least it isn't as bad as it could be. This is a solid car. Just got those two bad spots on her.
I am still up for any suggestions/help.
Does anyone make a pre-fab section that I can have put in there?
Is there anyone in the Atlanta, GA area that is recommended to do this work?
(I live on the south side if that makes any difference.)

Thanks to all,
(Maybe I can sleep tonight. ha ha)

Dougieb

[azruss]

I'm a little concerned about what i see in the pictures. looks like that side of the car has been damaged. the rocker tube section should be straight from the fender thru the door to the rear wheel. there should be a vertical flange running along the bottom of the panel that gives that panel support. you are also missing the jack point. We could be looking at a couple of things. 1st is damage to the tube under the door from a collision. This could have broken away from the fender section and rewelded without being properly aligned. i cant see enough in the picture. It is also possible that the PO was using the section as a jacking point and that why the bottom is so distorted. These tubes rely on straightness for the strength. I you dont want to do full surgery you a least need to do some reinforcing across the bottom where it is so beat up and think about adding a jack plate.

[Dougieb]

Thanks for the insights.
I called the local (vintage) Fiat shop and they referred me to a body shop.
Going to get the car to them (hopefully) next week to see what they say.

As far as the jack point, the passenger side is the same as the driver's side.
I do know what you are talking about but this is the way it seems.
It is possible that both sides were damaged but I just don't know.
Tomorrow I will take off the passenger side rocker panel and see what that side looks like.
I really need to get the car to someone that knows what the heck they are looking at and how to fix it.

I can live with previous damage a whole lot better than rust/rot.
I will post an update when I get it to the body shop.
We will see what they say.

Thanks again.

[124JOE]

well low dollar i see $300
if you do it yourself.what i would do is take your time ive had mine for 20 yrs.so if you have anything you have time
DONT JUST GIVE UP.start with the car on the ground and mesure and brace the cabin area
most likely the bar behind the dashto the rear behind the seat

this stops rust

or navel jelly,but you have to wipe it off
grap a paint brush and a spray bottle,spray inside and brush the outside"of the rust"
with the car on the ground screw a plate over the over the driverside rusty area"or weld it"use a heavy steel plate
for the pass side useing a more plyable sheet,cut and bend it to fit the area.because it nees to be welded

only cover over rust when your sure the rust has stoped
you can paint it as well and remove the paint where you weld

dont forget to paint when done

hope this helps

[Dougieb]

Thanks, Joe.

I am searching out for a frame/body shop in my area that can look at it. I think that I could do a patch/repair job myself but would rather have someone else look at it in person first to see if there isn't any other places that need attention.
Also, I would like to get the car measured to make sure the frame isn't tweaked or anything.
More for peace of mind than anything else.

I put some anti-rust paint on it just for the moment.
The car is garaged so I am not too worried about it getting worse.
Just want to fix it.

I will not give up on this car.
This is just another speed bump in the road.

Thanks.

[mPedro08]

Thanks, Joe.

I am searching out for a frame/body shop in my area that can look at it. I think that I could do a patch/repair job myself but would rather have someone else look at it in person first to see if there isn't any other places that need attention.
Also, I would like to get the car measured to make sure the frame isn't tweaked or anything.
More for peace of mind than anything else.

I put some anti-rust paint on it just for the moment.
The car is garaged so I am not too worried about it getting worse.
Just want to fix it.

I will not give up on this car.
This is just another speed bump in the road.

Thanks.

I think you may want to dig around a little more under the paint on those sills and under the goop in wheel arch. The seams do not look right to me compared to a completely stock, non rusty version I just started taking apart. I can send you a pic if you PM me an email address....

[124JOE]

if you paint it and wait 2 weeks then inspect youll see if it done growing for awhille
if it grows and flakes up the paint more then dig it out with a screwdriver
and repaint the area
same goes for the rust stop chemicals

[azruss]

Here is what the unmangled version looks like. you can see the missing jack points in the pix.
The rust treatment works well on the surface, but does not penetrate well. make sure you wire brush or sand all the loose scale off before you treat. Alot of the vertical strength is carried in the bottom flange, make sure that is reconstructed in the repair.

[Dougieb]

Well, I took her into the shop yesterday.
They seem very sharp, much experience on uni-body cars but not too much on Fiats.
He said that it was best to replace the whole sill plate on the driver's side. (the one in my pic and azruss)
I agreed.
The welds were swelling so it is time.

The passenger side does not need any work.
The initial quote to take care of all of it ( and a couple of other incidentals like under the battery, etc.) was $900.
I thought it was a fair price for all of the work and because these people seem to know what the heck they are doing.
I am telling this to help other people who may go through this understand how much it may cost.

azruss, I think I see what you are saying about the jack point.
It looks to me like your second pic has one on the right side.
Is that correct?
I found the jack points for sale pretty cheap.
How many are there on each side? One? Two?
Where exactly do they go?
Your pics, were they from the driver's side?
Any information would be appreciated.

mPedro08, I sent you a PM.
Thanks for the offer.
Please send me what pics you can.

Thanks, 124JOE for the suggestion.

Well, it is in motion.
I should get back a solid car. One that I am not afraid to drive the way it was meant.

I will post more when I get the info.

Thanks all.
Dougieb